When I saw this photo of Billie Jean King and Snoop Dog at the Olympics, I finally had to investigate and clarify of the meanings of two fingers raised. I do understand that it is considered to be a positive sign, meaning something like Rock On, but it was once something different in my my personal memory.
We'll get back to the Rock On salute later, but I first, I began with search about the typical one-finger salute. We all know what it means, more or less anyway.
The obscene gesture made by holding only the middle finger of a hand erect while the rest of the fingers are in a fist. (Wiktionary)
Then, I searched to reaffirm the meaning of the English two-finger salute. I already knew this but wanted to be clear.
The "two-fingered salute" ... is commonly performed by flicking the V upwards from wrist or elbow. The V sign, when the palm is facing toward the person giving the sign, has long been an insulting gesture in the United Kingdom, and later in Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. (Google)
Here is a little more information about the origins. Although there seems to be some doubt about the origin of the tale, I choose to accept it because I like it.
A commonly repeated legend claims that the two-fingered salute or V sign derives from a gesture made by longbowmen fighting in the English army at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War, but no written historical primary sources support this contention. This origin legend states that English archers believed that those who were captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off so that they could no longer operate their longbows, and that the V sign was used by uncaptured and victorious archers in a display of defiance against the French. (Wikipedia)
This up yours two-finger sign is not to be confused with the V for Victory sign. In the Victory version the palm faces away from the person using it. The other, nasty version has the perpetrator's palm facing inward.
With his palm facing outwards, Winston Churchill flashed the V for Victory sign.
Finally, I got onto my primary mission of trying to resolve the positive Rock On interpretation with how it conflicted with my boyhood understanding.
It was back in my childhood, Montreal days that I had understood this two-fingered gesture to be very offensive. However, I don't think I have seen anyone using it after moving to Ontario at the age of fifteen. Here, it has always been the typical one-finger salute. Sue, a Toronto and Ontario girl, has never known of my two-finger variation, which I just described to her. She only knows the Rock On vibe.
Was I misremembering? Perhaps it was that, or perhaps, it was just a gesture of the boys of my school and neighbourhood? What would an online search reveal? I found that it is a gesture with a meaning other than Rock On.
The sign of the horns is a hand gesture with a variety of meanings and uses in various cultures. It is formed by extending the index and little fingers while holding the middle and ring fingers down with the thumb. (Wikipedia)
Wikipedia followed with a little more information.
In many Mediterranean and Latin countries, such as Colombia, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain and Mexico, when directed towards someone, pointed upward, and/or swiveled back and forth, the sign offensively implies cuckoldry in regard to the targeted individual . . .
I am not sure why that manifestation also occurred in English Montreal in the fifties and early sixties, but it certainly did. Did the francophones also use the symbol? I expect so, but I don't know.
After my little bout of research, I now know, or at least think I know, the meanings of these gestures in their various contexts. Why it has taken me this long to really delve into the topic, I know not, but I am content to have resolved it at last. It still perplexes me why that one variation was so prominent in the Montreal of my boyhood, but at least I am pretty well assured that I wasn't mistaken.
It had the same negative connotation when I was younger too! It was offensive. That is why I too found it puzzling that it morphed into a “positive” symbol (I am not always sure of that) of “love”.
ReplyDeleteThe only difference I can discern is that the offensive meaning has more aggressive arm movements (what I remember from earlier) whereas today, the arm motions seem more subdued and quiet.
PipeTobacco
@Pipe: Good observation about the upthrust arm movement.
ReplyDeleteThat horn sign is support for the UT Longhorns team. The Bush family used to do it. Nothing shady.
ReplyDeleteDuring my recent visit to Greece, I had to be careful about the two finger "peace" sign and make sure my palms were facing out and not in. But the one that was the hardest was my tendency to wave by holding up my hand, palm out with all five fingers extended. That is very offensive over there but fortunately they don't begrudge tourists from doing it since we didn't know better. But I learned the correct way by putting a hand over my heart and nodding my head down and to the left instead.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic, in my rural area, farmers will often just raise their index finger while driving down the road and meeting someone you know coming in the opposite direction. It took me years to break that habit after urbanites would confuse it for my middle finger at the speeds involved.
@Boud: Yes, I have seen that variation as well. I was quote surprised at the time because I was only familiar with the rude variations when I first saw it at a college football game. I thought to mention it in my post, but there was already much information there, so one has to pick and choose.
ReplyDelete@Ed: Yes the casual index finger is a friendly sign, but not everyone will know that. I might use it when someone does me a courtesy in the car, like letting me go ahead of them while in an intersection.
ReplyDeleteThe most infamous "Peace" sign two finger solute I remember is Nixon entering the helicopter upon his exit of the Whitehouse. Looking back, what he did is laughable compared to what we are seeing now.
ReplyDeleteWhere I grew up it was an aggressive gesture, but done with the left hand under the elbow of the right arm, which was held up higher. It was accompanied by something vulgar, usually in Italian. Later I knew it a as a chill thing, surfer hang ten.
ReplyDeleteThe horn sign is the horns of the Devil.
ReplyDeleteIn Hawaii, we wave and pose with the Shaka sign (Thumb and little finger) to say "Hang loose."
Thorough investigation and thoroughly interesting. Thank you aloha
ReplyDeleteGood research, enquiring minds.
ReplyDeleteI just see this as part of sign language for BS! My sign language teacher taught us swear words. When you are a teacher it pays to know, as you know!
I remember it as an offensive gesture too. But what is the Hawaiian one, hang loose? Is that one similar except wiggling the hand back and forth. I'm not very good at gestures!
ReplyDeleteThanks, AC, for all this research and now I too know more than before about this iconic gesture which also seemed odd to me. And, as you well know, from my own blog posts, I always like to know the full story so good on you.
ReplyDeleteI have to stop myself from using the one finger salute when I am driving. I try to wave instead which freaks the other person out. ;-)
ReplyDeleteThis is educational. A lot of hand signs are also used in spells from many parts of the world
ReplyDeleteInteresting! Didn't a president use one of those gestures somewhere that it was offensive? I am thinking Australia but that might not be right.
ReplyDeleteHere a wave is customary anytime you pass someone on our narrow roads, or see someone walking or out in their yard.
Larry says in England he got a lot of one-finhered salutes as he tried to navigate roundabouts and learned to drive on the left.
If you make that sign, palm facing forward, it's the shaka sign in Hawaii. A greeting.
ReplyDeleteSo many meanings and so many chances to (in ignorance) offend!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the explanation -- I had no idea!
ReplyDelete